M219 American Rifleman Review

[Garnett]

I just read a short review of the Model 219 rifle in the August 1959 edition of the American Rifleman.  It was a good review and said with factory 150 grain ammunition it was "very accurate despite its heavy, but creep free 9-lb. trigger pull." It was suggested that a rear sight with windage adjustment would be an improvement. 

[Mike Armstrong]

I sometimes find old gun magazines and will keep my eyes open for that issue.  Pretty sure I haven't read the article you refer to.  Did the .30-30 they reviewed have scope grooves, and, if it did, did they say anything about whether they would hold a scope against the recoil? 

"SOMEDAY" I'm going to find a 219 .30-30 with those grooves so I can experiment and see if they work.  None of the ones I've owned has had grooves.

I suspect they might work if the scope was light enough and the clamp/mounts were "reinforced" with Loctite.  A big heavy steel scope like the sports seem to prefer nowadays would seem to me to make slippage more likely and more pronounced.

[Garnett]

Mike, I have talked with a reader of my book who says he has had no problem with the scope coming loose with the .30-30.  While the author of the article did not name the model letter, it was at least a "B" series with grooves cut in the top of the barrel for scope mounting, because he does mention mounting a scope.  He had to modify the scope claw type bases.  Garnett

[Mike Armstrong]

Interesting.  I always wondered about that since, to me, the 219 .30-30 does "back up" a little!  My Idaho friend's rechambered .30-40 backed up a lot! The other calibers have minimal recoil, at least the .25-20 and .22 Hornet. 

I've never fired a .32-20 Model 219, but my two Model 23s in that caliber had very little recoil, even with the old WHV 80 gr. hollowpoints.  Just enough to let you know you weren't shooting a .22.

Mike Armstrong

[Garnett]

Mike, as I have discussed before, the two weak points in the M219/220 guns are the firing pin and the stock, where it fits next to the action.  This is a weak point in the wood and it is not unusual at all to find a crack for two at this point where the metal meets the wood.  It must be really weak, as I have examined many .22 Hornet chambered guns with the cracks.  Of course, it is possible that the Hornet chambered guns were shot at some point in time with a .30 caliber or 12 gauge barrel attached, but that just does not seem likely for some many examples I have seen.  As a precaution against this cracking, when ever I take a stock off a newly acquired gun, I glass bed the inside of the stock.  Your article is in the mail.  Garnett

[Mike Armstrong]

Garnett, I got the "Rifleman" article--many thanks!  Seemed a fair review to me, although I've never had a 219 or 220 that had such a heavy trigger pull as the one they tested.  On the other hand, I've never had a factory new one,  so mine may have had the pull adjusted or just "wore in" to a lighter pull.  And I've seen 219s that had an aftermarket "trigger shoe" added by their owners, presumably to reduce the perceived trigger pull weight.

I assume from the case hardening and scope grooves that they gun they reviewed was the "B" model, and I've only had that as a shotgun, many years ago.  Most of mine, including the ones I still have are Utica-manufactured earlier models.

Do you have a Savage 1945 catalog?  If not, I have a spare I can send you.  It's not an original but a Cornell Publications reproduction, and very close to a "real" one.  They have most years available; you might want other years after you see this one.  Let me know.

Mike Armstrong

[Garnett]

Mike, I do have a 1945 catalog, from Cornell.  Thanks for the offer.  About a year ago, I purchased from them, all the catalogs I was missing.  If anyone needs an old Savage catalog and can't find one, Cornell Publications has most of them.  Their catalogs are a quality item and the people are nice to deal with.  Very fast shipping.  www.cornellpubs.com   

[Mannyrock]

  Most folks I talked to about the 219B on another talk board say that yes, the claw type scope rings won't stay in place.  They shift under recoil.  Very frustrating.   Problem is, the scope grooves are narrow and small, and exactly to the same specs as those on standard .22 rifles.  Fine for a .22, but not fine for a .30-30.

  The most common solution is for people to simply have the rifle drilled and tapped for the two piece weaver bases made for the rifle, or to buy a really good sets of all steel claw mounts, and then drill and tap a "set" screw in front of the forward mount,inserting a screw sticking up, to keep the mount from shifting forward.

  I have a 219B, with grooved receiver, and I am thinking about maybe installing an expensive set of claw mounts, and then taking a small flat punch and "peening" the groove a little flat just in front of the mounts.  Not too much, just a ding.  I think that this would probably keep the mounts from sliding.  The small peened sections could always be opened back up with a receiver grooving machine.

  I'll let  you know what I decide.

Mannyrock

[savagebrother]

Hey guys, thought I would throw out my 2 cents worth.
Put some loctite on the mating surfaces and allow it to dry 2 days.
Oh on the scope ring and the groove in the barrel. I know this will work because I had to buy a slip on or clamp on style brake for one of my rifles and was a little concerned about it getting blown off.
Well I decided on Witts machines brake. Why? Well after talking to them about the mounting of their brake I found out that I would use blue loctite on the mating surfaces between the brake and the barrel and witts promised it would not move??? Well that was 3-1/2 years ago and several hundred round. It has never moved, not once!!
So I'm going to put a little blue loctite on my 219B 30-30 Winchester.
SB

[Garnett]

Thanks for sharing that with us!  This is an easy solution to what could be a big problem. 

[olafhardtB]

I have filed grooves on a model 69 Winchester and it worked ok. The gun already had a lot of stuff done to it. I am sure you could deepen grooves with a file. I take Gorilla glue and mix it with powered graphite and put it under sights. It expands as it dries to fill up voids under the glued on stuff and pooches out little rolls that look like welds. I have not had glued on scopes to come off but I did have a scope tear out of grooves. I glued a ventilated rib onto my 219 20 ga and it stayed on until I took it off. I worry about heat loosening glued joints on barrels. I think the polyurethanes have more resistance to heat and vibration than the epoxies. I don't have any references on this. Gorilla, J B Weld and the super glues have worked sometimes and occasionally failed.

[Garnett]

Strange that you mentioned putting a vented rib on a 220 at this time.  I have a custom stocked 20 gauge M220.  Please see pictures on pages 93,94, & 95 of my book.  I have purchased a ventilated rib for this gun, but the rib is 30 inches and the barrel is only 28 inches.  I have purchased a 30 inch barrel in hopes it will fit the existing action without to much trouble.  I have had extra barrels lock perfectly in place, some that required minor fitting, and others so loose they could not be installed.  If so, I am going to get my gun smith to install the rib.  I had assumed he would screw it in place on the front and rear and silver solder the in between posts.  Has anyone else used glue of any kind?  I will keep you posted.

[olafhardtB]

I read instructions by Reid Coffield a few years ago. He used the black Loctite and he indicated that lots of ribs are glued on. Before retiring he was a master gunsmith at Brownell's. I bought a rib from Numrich that seemed to be a 12 gauge and glued it on my 20 gauge 220 with polyurethane/graphite which expanded to fill the extra space. The only anchor I used was a hole drilled in rhe rib to slip over the bead. I drilled and tapped the top of the rib to take a nylon screw which I trimmed to make a bead  I don't know weather you guys get into the Savage 24's but these techniques were developed as part of a project to make peep sights for Savage 24's which I credit with being the greatest squrille gun of all time.

[Garnett]

Thanks for this additional information.

[savagebrother]

Hey guys check out my new thread above on a scope mount.
SB