219&220

[Mike Armstrong]

Bob, the only things I know about 219 and 220 firing pins are 1) they are a serious bitch to find and then replace if you break one, and 2) Dry firing (snapping on an empty chamber) will sooner or later break them.  So don't.  I get or make snap caps for all my barrels to prevent broken pins.

My .30-30 (late Utica vintage) fires both .30-30 and 20 guage shotgun shells just fine with the one firing pin.  My early Utica .25-20 shoots .410 shells just fine, too.  Don't currently have a .22 Hornet to see if the pin diameter is different, although that makes some sense.

Maybe somebody else can check theirs.

[Garnett]

It has always been accepted that the firing pins for the rifle and shotgun were different.  I am doing some research on this now.  I purchased a new striker (M219) and firing pin (starting with 219B) and both measure the same diameter.  The striker and pin for the 220/220B is no longer available, so I am going to have my gunsmith remove these from my guns and measure them.  As to the "Utility Gun" with both rifle and shot barrel......I am also going to have him remove those and measure them.  But to answer your question, with different stock numbers, I think the shotgun striker/pin is larger than the rifle.

[bob]

Hello Garnett,just yesterday I found a 220 16ga. with an adjustable choke in very good cond.no etching on sides or bottom.could you give me any info. on the adjustable chokes-+ and -?it is all original-no reblueing ever,it's really in nice shape.the man is giving me 1st dibbs on it.     any info. would be appreciated!      thanks   bob

[Garnett]

Bob, I have found 2 different types of chokes on these guns.  One is a "Poly Choke, one is made by Savage.  Both these are installed originally at the Savage factory with a recoil pad installed.  Each is marked with one or the other name.  If the gun you are looking at has a choke with anther name then I feel that most likely it is not an original Savage installation.  The 3rd choke option could be either of the above, and could have been installed on a gun sent back to the factory after purchase.  Most likely these won't have a recoil pad.  I have in my collection all 3 examples listed above.  There are so few of them found and I believe the reason was that the addition of a choke devise, cost 2/3's of the cost of the gun without a choke.  If you have not already done so, see page 84 of my book for pictures of both chokes.  If the cost is not prohibitive, I would buy it, as you seldom see them for sale.  Please send a picture if you get it and have time.  Best wishes, Garnett

[bob]

hello garnett,just to let you know,i did get the 16 ga.it has all matching letter's-no #'s at all!the choke is a factory installed POLYCHOKE with 6 different settings.my 219 30-30 barrels fits on it perfectly.the 12 ga. barrel also fits good.it has the recoil pad too.i will get pics to you soon,but I'm having trouble gett'in pics on here for some reason right now. could you tell me,on these early 219's &220's frames is there really any difference between the 2 other than the # 219 being stamped on the frame?are there any early 220's you have seen with just the #220 on it.i really don't see any difference.     thanks bob

[Garnett]

Bob, there is no difference in the frames as far as outside appearance other than the "219" mark on the rifles.  I have not found any shotguns with "220" at the same location as on rifles.  Now, I have discovered some minor internal differences within the same Model numbers.  Sounds like the new gun is a good one.  Congratulations!  If you are still having problems with the pictures, email them to me at :
garnettstancil@hotmail.com    and I will get my son to post them.  Best wishes, and Merry Christmas!  garnett

[Garnett]

Bob, we got one picture this morning of an early action with alloy guard.  Did you send more than one?  It is a nice action.  Is this your new 220 with the poly choke and recoil pad?  Happy New Year!  garnett

[gwsiii]

The above pictures are of a M220 with a factory installed "Poly Choke" and recoil pad.  It is an early Utica action with the alloy trigger guard.  Bob says all assembly numbers match.  This is a nice gun that is difficult to find.  Thanks for sending the pictures!

[Mike Armstrong]

I appreciate your attitude toward these "less than perfect" guns!  I'm a hunter, shooter, handloader, and student of guns and the idea of owning a gun and not shooting it is something I haven't ever fully understood, although I know lots of collectors who would NEVER shoot a pristine gun (My older brother is one....).  If I have it, it gets shot.

So none of my guns are "pristine:" either I put some wear on them after I bought them new, or they weren't new when I bought them!  Now I look specifically for examples that are just worn enough that I can shoot the heck out of them and drag them over hill and dale and not worry much about destroying some future collector's joy.  And I can sometimes actually AFFORD these "experienced" guns, too!

Never really understood just "collecting," Savages in particular.  They were ALL meant to be used, except for a very very few extra-fancy '99s!  But we DO need a few "collectors" just to keep good examples around for the rest of us to learn from, one reason I appreciate Garnett's work and this forum.

[Garnett]

Mike, thanks for the kind words!  I agree, guns were made to be shot.  In my younger days, if I purchased a gun tonight, it would be shot before sundown tomorrow.  Now days, the weather has to be perfect for me to do any shooting....not too hot, not too cool, no rain, etc. :-)   The only one of my Savage 219's I have shot is the first .30-30 I got in the past few years that renewed my interest in them.  I had thought I was the only collector of these two models, but have discovered there are a few others.  You continue to shoot yours and I will show mine at gun shows to try to stir up some interest in them.  That is one good thing about our gun collecting/shooting hobby, there is room for all of our opinions.  Best wishes, Garnett

[Garnett]

Bob, I just today saw your question about firing pins.  Yes, There were two different sizes of pins.  One, smaller, for rifles and the larger one for shotguns.  Numrich Arms has both listed in the early "striker" models and the later "Firing Pin" models.  The are offered for both rifle and shotgun, but all are not in stock.  This arrangement is OK as far as it goes.  But what about your "Utility" gun (and all the others) that have both barrels?  I have 3 "Utility" guns and the small pin is in one and the larger in two.  So, if a pin works for both...what was the purpose of having two different sizes?  There are so many questions unanswered about the guns and we may never know.